Compare/Contrast #1 Holden and Florentino

To answer your question Sasha, yes I have found at least one similarity between these characters. As I was reading your first compare and contrast post, I started thinking about the protagonists and Antagonists of each story. I then realized that the antagonists in both stories were the protagonists themselves. 

In Catcher in the Rye, Holden’s antagonists are himself and the “phonies” that he always mentions. Holden is his own enemy because he does not open up to other people and meet with them normally. He is making himself get expelled at multiple schools because of his unwillingness to apply himself in school and invest in the future. He only got into a depressive mode because he chose to feel sorry for himself when he was failing. He held himself in and the only time he felt happy was when he stopped being his own enemy and looked at his sister from a different perspective.

In Comparison, in Love in the Time of Cholera, Florentino was also his own enemy as he had no real enemies. He was defeating himself for not being able to find a stable relationship. Throughout the whole book he was criticizing himself, like holden, for not going on and finding a new partner. In Holden’s case he really wanted to go out with Jane, but he just couldn’t even call her. In Florentino’s case he wanted to be with Fermina so bad that he would not let go and he made himself feel bad for doing so. Florentino also criticized himself for sleeping with so many women because he knew that it was wrong, but he still kept doing it.


Sasha, What similarities can you find between the two characters even thought they are so different?

Compare/Contrast Post #1: Differences Between Protagonists

I disagree with you.  Even though Phoebe is younger, I don't really think that what Holden is doing is any crazier than what Phoebe is doing.  Phoebe doesn't want to go back to school.  Holden wants to go off on his own and being a new life.  He has no plans of finishing school or making much of his life.  I definitely don't believe Holden has the maturity or ability to conduct life on his own.  Because Phoebe is so smart, it is possible that she purposely told Holden that she wanted to not go back to school in order inadvertently help her brother realize how unrealistic he was being and to convince him to stay home.


The Catcher in the Rye and Love in the Time of Cholera are very different books. For me, the differences in the novels’ protagonists really stood out.
Throughout the story, Florentino was always very focused on his goal: make Fermina his wife/lover. He went after her with everything he had. He serenaded her on the violin, he wrote her one love letter after another, he got a job and worked so he could be worthy of her, and he waited fifty years to be with her. "Fermina," Florentino said, "I have waited for this opportunity for more than half a century, to repeat to you once again my vow of eternal fidelity and everlasting love." (p 50). Even though he wasn’t the manliest of men, Florentino refused to back down even when he was threatened by Fermina’s father, the powerful Lorenzo Daza. “‘Don't force me to shoot you,’” said Lorenzo Daza. “Florentino felt his intestines filling with cold froth. But his voice did not tremble because he felt himself illuminated by the Holy Spirit. ‘Shoot me,’ he said, with his hand on his chest. ‘There is no greater glory than to die for love’” (p 82).

In contrast, Holden didn't really have an objective that he sought after with a fiery passion. In fact, I think his experience was quite opposite. He didn’t care about school, his education, or his future and he’d been expelled from multiple schools. He rejected the world around him as being “phony.” Holden wasn’t able to create relationships due to his judgmental behavior. In the story he left his school and went off on his own, calling up girls at random, getting drunk, and conducting other kinds of questionable behavior. Holden even admitted it himself: “I don’t get hardly anything out of anything. I’m in bad shape. I’m in lousy shape” (p 131).

These two characters are very different: while Florentino has a goal that he pursues the entire book, Holden wanders around searching for something to live for.

Kai:  It is obvious these characters are different.  Do they have any similarities?

CITR Post #4

As the story came to a close, I wandered to myself why the book had so much writing about things that happened in only a few days. I have seen books of equal length that were set in a whole years worth of information, like “When Broken Glass Floats.”

As Sasha has said, I was also confused by the title of the book and why it was titled this way. I found it surprising that J.D. Salinger would name this whole book off of a poem that Holden had said incorrectly. I think that it makes sense because this book is mostly about how Holden is sad and lonely and then Holden talks about a Robert Burns’ Poem. This Poem actually says “If a body meet a Body,” but Holden has always thought that it was “If a body catch a body.” Holden states that the only way he would be happy is if he “Had to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff.” The only thing he wants to be is the “Catcher in the rye.” (173) Although it seemed weird to name a book after something that is only mentioned in one paragraph, I believe that it is a good name because it is the one thing that will make Holden happy. If I could name it differently I would name it, The One to Save, or something similar because it relates to this story of happiness. 

I hope that Holden keeps to his word when he says, “I’m going to apply myself when I go back to school next September.” (213) Although he says this he also says, “How do you know what your going to do until you get there” which implies that he probably won’t apply himself at the new school.

Sasha, I believe that Holden is someone Phoebe looks up too even though she knows he is a bad influence because he is her older brother. He set an example to her by saying that he would be running away, so she wanted to be like her brother and run away with him even thought she loves her parents. It is a more crazy Idea for Phoebe to run away because she is only ten.

CITR #4: The Catcher in the Rye

When I first began reading this book, I had no idea what the title meant or symbolized. The meaning is revealed in the book, and I think it is important to discuss.

Although Holden appears to want to have a role in the adult-world, children and memories of his childhood bring him the most joy.  For the majority of the book, Holden is depressed.  Pretty much the only times in the book when he's happy is when he's thinking about his younger sister Phoebe.  For example, at the very end of the book, Holden is enjoying time with Phoebe at the zoo.  He watches her on the carousel and feels truly happy for the first time in the book "I felt so damn happy if you want to know the truth....It was just that she [Phoebe] looked so damn nice, the way she kept going around and around, in her blue coat and all" (p 213).  Holden enjoys his time with Phoebe because he is able to forget the stresses and expectations of the adult world, indulging himself into a care-free one.

It becomes evident as the story develops that Holden's childhood was (and still is) very important to him.  I think he associates children with innocence.  Towards the end of the book, Holden expresses his desire to help children keep their innocence and care-free lives for as long as possible.  When Holden goes to Phoebe's   school, he notices that somebody had written "F*** you" on the wall.  "It drove me damn near crazy....I kept wanting to kill whoever'd written it" (p 201).  Holden then proceeds to rub it off the wall.  This is one example of Holden making an effort to help children keep their innocence.  

This is where the title of the book comes in.  Holden thought the old poem by Robert Burns went "if a body catch a body comin' through the rye.  (Really it's "if a body meet a body comin' through the rye," referring more to a sexual encounter).  Holden envisions little kids playing some game in a big field of rye.  "Thousands of little kids, and nobody's around—nobody big, I mean—except me"  (p 173).  He imagines standing on the edge of a great cliff and catching children before they fall off.  "That's all I'd do all day.  I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all.  I know it's crazy but that's really the only thing I'd like to be" (p 173).    By catching the children before they fall off the cliff, Holden is referring to catching the children before they lose their innocence and are exposed to the real adult world.  

Kai:  near the end, Holden tells Phoebe he's going away to live on a ranch, and she says she's going to go with him.  When she says she's not going back to school, he tells her to "cut out the crazy stuff" (p 208).  Is it really any more crazy for Phoebe to want to leave than it is for Holden?

CITR post #3 Holden's Depression

It has become apparent to me that holden is very desperate to feel some sort of happiness from any source. He goes to the park to find his sister because he knows that she would make him happier. After not finding Phoebe, he continues to search for more happiness by going on a date with Sally, even though he doesn’t really like her as much as Jane. He likes the way she looks but he doesn’t really think that he will find happiness with her. He ends the date by calling her a “Royal pain in the ass” and leaving without her.

After reading this section, I think that Holden’s health is starting to get worse and worse. As his depression worsens so does his bad habits. He continues to smoke cigarettes more often than he did ever before. He also starts drinking alcohol more and more, to the point of being drunk. Every time he goes out, he seems to be drinking or smoking. This also relates to his happiness because he is probably smoking and drinking to get rid of the lonely feeling and not deal with the pain of depression. Holden even goes to the pond with his hair frozen while he worries about pneumonia. I hope that he finds good health when he finally does find happiness.

Sasha, I think that Holden dislikes the actors in movies because he believes that they are full of themselves. He doesn’t like their huge egos and cockiness about how great they are. He also doesn’t like being put into a different class of people like he has been before. I find it interesting that Holden hates movies and plays, but he himself goes to them a lot. This also supports Holden being hypocritical.

CITR #3: Conflicting Personality

As the book progresses, it becomes obvious that Holden has a very conflicting personality. Part of Holden wants to have relationships with people (especially on a sexual level), but as I discussed before, he is very judgmental and rejects the world as phony, retreating into childishness and immaturity.
Holden tries many times to have relationships with people, many of which he tries to take a more adult-like role in. For example, Holden really wants to have a sexual relationship. Holden begins by trying to lose his virginity to a prostitute (and fails). He finds girls very attractive and often thinks about calling one of them up (Jane, Sally, etc.). At one point, he does call Sally up and arranges a date with her. Holden tries to take on a more adult-like role when suggests that he and Sally "drive up to Massachusetts or Vermont,...stay in these cabins until the dough runs out," and when the dough runs out, "get a job....Later on, we could get married or something" (p 132). Holden's relationship with Sally doesn't work out because he's not able to connect with her. He gets fed up with his life because he is surrounded by phonies and wants a change of pace. Sally is completely unable to understand where Holden is coming from. Holden proceeds to call her a "royal pain in the ass" (p 133).
Holden also arranges a meeting with Luce, an old peer at Whooton School, and now a college student. Holden attempts to initiate a relationship with Luce and at the same time get information about girls and sex (as Luce is very "experienced"). Holden is not able to connect with Luce either; he bombards him with immature questions and internally believes Luce is a phony.
One interaction (with other people) that goes pretty well is when Holden meets the nuns. He is able to converse with them. They like him and he likes them. Although his reason for liking them may be based on judgments (he thinks they aren't phonies because they "never went anywhere swanky for lunch" (p 114), he is able to interact with people in the real world, which is an improvement.

I think it is interesting that Holden thinks the adult world is phony, yet tries so hard to be apart of it by not only trying to create adult relationships but by pretending his is much older than he actually is and by conducting adult-like activities (drinking, smoking, etc.).


Kai, on a slightly different note, here is my question: Holden often expresses the fact that he hates moves and plays and especially dislikes actors. Why does he dislike actors so much?

CITR Post #2 Loneliness

As the story progresses through Holden’s adventure in New York, I found that Holden was a very lonely person. When he arrived in New York, he tried to set up a date with a girl that he had never met in the middle of the night. This shows that Holden is desperate for some attention and self-worth. Holden continues to go to the nightclub in the hotel where he tries to get attention from some older women. After returning from another night club Holden is so lonely that he even accepts an offer of a prostitute from the elevator operator. These examples show just how lonely Holden is. Being so lonely Holden feels depressed and thinks that most of the things that people are saying to him are also depressing. 

Although Holden is being mean to others to relieve the depression that he is feeling, he is really a kind man behind the façade he is showing. In this section Holden is reminiscing memories of his fatally ill brother and Jane who was a good friend. He is feeling very guilty for the things he did to Allie, his brother, who had recently died. He felt guilty for small things like excluding him from a game that Holden played. Another example that shows Holden’s kindness is when he held and comforted Jane after her father had asked her for cigarettes.

Sasha, I predict that Holden will be depressed for a long time as he returns to his mad parents, but that near the end of the book he will find happiness. It might become worse when he returns home because his parents will be shameful and he will still be lonely. I hope that Holden realizes his self worth because he could become so depressed that he might be suicidal.

CITR #2: Alienation as a Coping Mechanism

It is obvious that Holden is a very troubled person. He has flunked out of school, shows absolutely no interest in his future, and doesn't seem to be able to connect with people. He is continually criticizing others for being phony while he himself is a compulsive liar.

Holden is an unhappy person. In addition to labeling people as phonies, he often describes himself, things and other people as depressing. For example, when he gets his "crumby" room at the hotel in New York, he didn't care much because he was "too depressed to care whether I had a good view or not" (p 61). He then describes the bellboy depressing because he is old and bald. Holden describes himself as depressed more and more often as the book progresses. For example, while in a club in New York City, Holden finds the conversations around him to be depressing and phony. Later, Holden becomes depressed while hanging out with the ladies in the lounge of the hotel because they are obsessed with movie stars. Holden also becomes depressed when the prostitute comes into his hotel room.

I think that Holden is probably scared. He doesn't know who he is, what he's doing, or he is going to become. He doesn't really seem to have any balance in his life. He doesn't seem to have any hobbies anything he is particularly skilled at. I'm guessing that he judges people because by pointing out other people's weaknesses (or their perceived weaknesses), he makes himself feel better about who he is. Although he may have nothing going for him, he makes himself feel better by bringing other people down. When he creates these quick judgments of people, labeling them "phony," he is actually demonstrating to the reader that his own perceptions of others are superficial. Obviously this is not sustainable behavior and I think it is also contributing to his depression.

Kai, what do you predict will happen with Holden's depression throughout the book? Is he just going through a phase? Will it become worse? Will he have some turning point/moment of realization in which he comes to understand his self-worth?

CITR Post #1 Spontaneous

After Reading only one page of this book I could tell that I was going to like it much more than Love in the Time of Cholera because it was much less confusing. Throughout this section of the book I noticed that Holden, the main character, often made sudden snap decisions to do something that he wanted. While at the hotel in New York, Holden spontaneously calls a girl named Faith in to set up a date with her, but then after she says that she couldn’t that night he decides that he doesn’t want to have a date with her. I think that this spontaneous decision making is one of the attitudes that got Holden expelled from Pencey. 

Holden also seams to think too much about other people during conversations instead of focusing on the conversation itself. He is basically being extremely judgmental while others are trying to have a conversation. For example when Holden went to visit his teacher, Mr. Spencer, he was focusing on the fact that the room smelled and that the bed was as hard as rock. He even focused on Mr. Spencer’s head nodding rather than the important life lecture that he was being given. I think that this attitude also contributed to the fact that Holden got expelled from Pencey. I believe this because Holden was probably not focusing on the teachers’ lectures and that caused him to fail most of his classes.

Sasha, I think that Holden is calling everyone a phony because he is most of the time correct. I think that a principle who talks to nice looking parents, but not to odd looking parents is a “phony.” Although most of the people he calls phony probably are phony, I agree with you when you say that he is being Hippocratic because he lies and acts “phony” around others too.

Catcher in the Rye Post #1: "Phoniness"

I think that one of the themes in this book, The Catcher in the Rye, is the phoniness of people in Holden's world.  Right off the bat I could tell that Holden is a judgmental person.  He seems to believe that all adults are phonies.  He busies himself with identifying the superficiality and the hypocrisy within other people.  For example, Holden stated that he liked the headmaster's daughter because she probably knew " what a phony slob he [her father] was" (p 3).  Another occasion in which he uses the word "phony" is when he is with Old Spencer.  Spencer is talking about how he met with Holden's parents.  He calls them "grand people."  In tern, Holden thinks "Grand.  There's a word I really hate.  It's a phony.  I could puke every time I hear it" (p 9). 

Not only does Holden think most people are phonies, but he believes that due to their phoniness, they don't have the ability to understand him or recognize the phoniness in themselves or others.  For example, when Old Spencer asks Holden why he "had some difficulty" at one of his previous schools, Elkton Hills, Holden avoids answering by saying "it's pretty complicated."  Holden confesses (in his thoughts) that "one of the big reasons I left Elkton Hills was because I was surrounded by phonies" (p 13).  Holden doesn't explain this to Old Spencer because he doesn't believe he will understand.  

Although Holden is excellent at identifying other people's phoniness, he overlooks his own.  Holden himself is compulsive liar.  For example, on the way to New York, he meets a woman (who happens to be the mother of one of he school mates) and proceeds to tell her lie after lie from how his son is the school hot-shot, to how he is going to have an operation on his back.  I think Holden would like the reader to believe that he is the only "real," down-to-earth person in a world of phonies, but in fact, this is far from the truth.  

Kai, why do you think Holden believes everyone is a phony?  Is he just pessimistic?  Or do you think it is a defense mechanism?

LITTOC #4: Afraid of Becoming Old

I think Fermina wanted Dr. Urbino to come back to her because their relationship wasn't really built around love.  They had grown to care for each other and take care of each other, but love wasn't really part of their relationship.  When he cheated on her, Dr. Urbino didn't hurt her feelings of love, but he broke her trust.  I think trust is really what they had in their marriage.  Even though he had broken it, she knew he still cared about her and she still cared about him.


I agree:  aging is a very important theme in this book.  I want to add a few more comments about this theme that really stood out to me.

In your first post, you mentioned how Jeremiah de Saint-Amour committed suicide because he was afraid of becoming old.  Well, he had something in common with many characters in this book, predominately Florentino.  Florentino was also afraid of dying.  At first, Florentino didn't pay any attention to the fact that he was aging.  He was waiting around for Dr. Urbino to die so he could get another chance with Fermina "as if time would not pass for him but only for others" (p 218).  With a shock, he realized he had been waiting around for more than thirty years and he was only getting older.  He became obsessed with the idea that age would be the one factor that would stand in his way of at last being Fermina's lover.  "He was never as afraid of death as he was of reaching that humiliating age when he would have to be led on a woman's arm.  On that day, and only on that day, he knew he would have to renounce his hope of Fermina Daza" (p 257).  It wasn't death that he was afraid of per say, it was the humiliation and the decrepitness that came along with old age.  As a result, Florentino obsessed over ways to sustain his youth.  He became infatuated with reversing the gradual balding of his head.  He "cut out every advertisement concerning baldness that he found in the newspapers" and after six years had "tried one hundred seventy-two of them" (p 261-262).  
Florentino wasn't the only one afraid old age.  At the end of the book when Fermina and Florentino started to rekindle their old love, Florentino leaned to kiss her on the cheek and she pulled away, saying "I smell like an old woman" (p 329).  In addition, Fermina had lost hearing in one ear and "did not tell anyone, for she was resigned to the fact that its was one of the many irremediable defects of old age" (p 338).  
To kind of answer your question, I didn't like this book very much, but I did think the ending was kind of beautiful.  Although they were both in their seventies and love at their age could be perceived as "disgusting," when they rediscovered their love for one another, they became a little younger and a little more enlivened.  I think that was the message the author, Marquez, was trying to get through to the reader when he described Fermina's transformation at the end:  "Fermina Daza was horrified when she heard the boat's horn with her good ear, but by the second day...she could hear better with both of them.  She discovered that roses were more fragrant than before, that the birds sang at dawn much better than before..." (p 344).  Even in old age, when united, the two felt young in spirit.